I mean, what would be the point of deconstructing anything in order to replace it? Is our future dream a shopping scheme? Isn’t it more realistic to simply get pissed, destroy? Even if there were a point to reconstructing a deconstructed construction, would it even be possible? No, it’s either a poorly thought out statement or an evil koan, designed captain kirk-like to make the the computer’s thought processor burst into flames. I don’t know how that actually fits into the psychiatry vs anti-psychiatry argument, but if you watch old episodes of Star Trek with the volume turned down and listen to God Save the Queen long enough, you’ll see what I’m trying to say. Well, not necessarily, but from an Aristotelian perspective, the conclusion that reconstruction, much less a better reconstruction, must follow from deconstruction, is not logical. And Derrida would probably laugh his ass off, though probably not in a way anyone would actually call intelligible.
Yeah, not to mention that the reconstruction of “mental illness” is taking place before our eyes whether we like it or not. I want to tear some new ass-holes, Chuck, Philip, who I adore, likes to keep things *civil* over there so of course the nastiness comes out all sideways and passive-aggressive. We’re all very fucking careful not to offend, and that makes me crazy, I have to say what I think and feel, you know, EXPRESS, the way a wound lets the poison out or the thoughts and feelings will never go. Honesty liberates, I’m not mad at anyone now, and am actually talking to people I’ve been disgusted with for the first time in months. Yelling heals my life.
I am somewhat antipsychiatry. I didn’t join the discussion on “Never deconstruct anything””. I don’t kid myself about my intellectual strength and importance, I’m fairly dumb, un-read and un-educated. So couldn’t write anything.
I am guessing you feel/felt unsupported? ( is it past or current tense of “feel”?)
I don’t think the mentally ill person exists until they are made by psychiatry, psych drugs/meds, the psych ward and the people around the former person ( peoples attitude to the diseased mentally ill), now pronounce witch/mentally ill.
The two things, 1)society announces mental illness is real, jails and medicates/drugs these people. These supposed ill want the same rights as any other disabled or ill group.
2) the mentally ill are in a large percentage not sick, but have been MADE perpetually sick by the meds/drugs (billion dollar profit) and the belief system in/of mental illness (needing meds/drugging). This is provent by comparing 1903 rates of serious mental illness with 2008’s rates percentages. Something is wrong in the “science” of psychiatry.
Once you have been declared seriously mentally ill and it sticks , you lose everything important. With everything lost what motivates one to get up in the morning and take on the day? The lack of insight of psychiatry on the effects of their diagnosis is crazy.
Sorry it took me so long to come back, I’ve been trying to school myself in what the hell happened. It’s not about being right but in hitting the same brick wall over and over. It seems the schism in radical mental health is on the voluntary/involuntary axis (as if that was black and white) or people who want to abolishv. those who want to reform, which puts people in the “same” movement at cross purposes, so we avoid necessary discussion because it inevitably leads to denunciation and flame wars. I’m just real tired of not knowing where people stand, and why.
i hate the brick wall and i am going to possibly piss you the hell off by saying i wish we lived closer; because we would be a couple of kick ass friends.
I think the schism is that antipsych folks don’t believe that there are discreet mental illnesses. It’s not that we don’t realize severe emotional distress exists though I speak for myself only. All of this talk about those dangerous schizophrenics troubles me when it’s pretty obvious the way one is treated once one gets that arbitrary label causes the behavior we think of as crazy. If someone hears voices, and you lock them up and torture them, is it any wonder the voices turn violent, frightening, abusive?
Meanwhile, if I’m reading you correctly, you believe that psych labels signify real conditions but you have a lot of problems with the current models for diagnosing, classifying and treating these conditions. So you and I often agree about the problems in the “mental health” system, and from what I’ve read I agree with you regarding problems with the system, but the fact that at the root of it all, I don’t think anybody is Bipolar or borderline…. and you disagree. Am I close?
I am not antipsychiatry and I don’t believe mental illnesses are biologically based. The day this can be proved I will go with the science, will you? NAMI says yes it is, and MINDFREEDOM says no it can’t be, and I say this is a ridiculous battle to base a movement on.
Do you not know what I believe? How is that possible? My worldview is on my ABOUT page, my blogroll, under INSIGHT, what do you see there? Click some links! Do you get the snark? What does Torrey call insight? Ah, see?
But, people who take the intellectually honest position and admit we don’t know whether mental illness is linked to heredity so let’s deal with what we do know, are constantly berated that they just don’t get it, despite our volume of work to the contrary. You know how often I get screamed at by antipsychiatry fucktards that there is no scientific proof of biologically based mental illness? No blood tests, no brain scans, no lab work can prove the broken brain exists? Why do you think they tell me this?
The reason I don’t like antipsychiatry asshats as people has to do with this effort to seize the discourse and make it about their pet obsession, and the inflexible assumption that people who refuse to play have something to learn about pseudoscience. And no matter how many times and in how many ways you put on record for the world to see that you get it, that you got it decades before they found WordPress, and that you begin from a “post-getting it” framework, that your own starting place is eons ahead of where they keep wanting to place you makes them ridiculous.
So, once more with feeling:
I think the schism is that antipsych folks don’t believe that there are discreet mental illnesses.
I don’t believe there are discrete mental illnesses, either, and I am not antipsychiatry. The day this can be proved I will align my belief with the evidence. Will you?
I also consider it a bad faith argument to define these disorders solely in politically correct terms of “severe emotional distress” while pointedly ignoring the mental derangement, profound irrationalism and unpredictablility that honest people acknowledge as madness.
I think using the term “politically correct” is bad faith behavior. I don’t get why you feel the term “disorder” is somehow necessary to describe severe emotional success. Of course I acknowledge that what you describe as madness exists I just don’t think it’s a medical disease. Madness can be a terrible thing as can dementia, still calling these conditions illnesses or diseases implies they are causing by a failing in the human experiencing them, sort of like calling poverty a disease which also bothers me, but that doesn’t mean I don’t think poverty is a serious problem or that I deny it’s existence, I just don’t think poverty is a disease or an illness.
Huh, but do I think dementia is a disease, a too brief typing of the above comment lead me to imply I don’t, but I think I do consider dementia, i.e. senility to be sort of a disease, a wearing out of the brain.
Yes, Alzheimer’s is a proven organic disease, based on the brain tangles seen during autopsy.
Madness can be a terrible thing as can dementia, still calling these conditions illnesses or diseases implies
This is the thing. I don’t think you’re clear on the difference between an implication and an inference. Inferring is active on your part, it is *your stuff*, and left unattended can lead to these strawman arguments, where you debate a non-existent adversary. When in doubt you can check it out. Ask, are you saying mental illness or poverty are disease processes? The reason that I am taking you seriously at all at this point is that I know it’s not just you who avoids assimilating the words of people who won’t denounce the term “mental illness” which is indeed the litmus test . I’m just not into that argument.
I don’t get why you feel the term “disorder” is somehow necessary
Pick up your DSM, see the term “illness” anywhere? I looked, mental illness is not in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.
This is not to deny that the medicalization of social ills has become prominent the last 2 decades, it’s about separating fact from opinion. To this day, every diagnosis is officially classified as “disorder”. That is a fact. You could even say the DSM is on your side here, since it’s doubtful the new DSM will reclassify the disorders as diseases, because there is no reputable scientific evidence that psychological disorders are diseases.
And it’s plain ludicrous that both NAMI and Mindfreedom want to convince me that they have solved the insoluble nature/nurture debate that’s been going on forever under the purview of actual thinkers who approach the question with the gravity, scholarly heft and humility I respect. To NAMI it’s nature and Mindfreedom says nurture, the certainty offends me and I mock them both with equal glee.
HI ya (((Robin((( Goody our back–NZ Goverment jsut took most legal aid off psy abuse case ppls-for somereason iam one o0f the few too keep theres–all others wll have 2 reaply—crock of shit-
Iam on pals puter and man its shite–Ive phoned you a few times but never get ya-Iam thinking its the whole time zone issue–iam so pissed at Kiwi Goverment I wanta rip them a few new arse holes–will keep on ringing–will get ya–mucho love Louise-xoxoxoxo
Sally, Mindfreedom and hardcore antipsychiatry types serve an important purpose, but I am not into it, and will not follow the playbook. I want more heart, more support and less ideological purity in radical mental health.
You said you’re tired of not knowing where people stand so I’ll try to explain where I stand on this whole thing. I don’t know what all the technical terms are or mean; all I really have to express my opinions are my own basic thoughts. My opinions are pretty radical, I think, but I guess they’d still fall into the “reform” category.
I’m against involuntary treatment. I do believe that some mental illness is caused by chemical imbalance, but I don’t think that current psychology takes circumstance into consideration as much as it should. I think that meds are way overprescribed and acceptance is way underrated. But some people need medication to feel okay, and I don’t see any reason why those people shouldn’t also be part of this movement.
I think that even something as abnormal as hearing voices isn’t neccesarilly a bad thing. Of course people have the right to get rid of mental states that disturb them, but I don’t think difference should be pathologized as much as it is. Some differences are positive, and even the negative ones can be useful. Destructive thoughts and behaviors, if we try to understand instead of eradicate them, can be very useful at revealing negative aspects of society that drive people to destruction.
Is there any schizophrenic here to claim that he feels fine?
Is there any person here to claim that it was a great and good trip being in maniac state?
This discussion is ridiculous!
I’m sorry!
flawedplan,
Please,
You have a good work here!
Don’t stress yourself with this.
There are people saying nonsense just in bad faith.
It’s a way to undermine the strengths of people who are trying hard, like you, to come up with good solutions.
Don’t feed them.
We have this kind of people in Brazil.
They are everywhere. They don’t believe in anything. They just want discussions like this to make you sound silly and loose credibility of your valuable work.
Stop this discussion, please!
It leads nowhere.
“…so we avoid necessary discussion because it inevitably leads to denunciation and flame wars. I’m just real tired of not knowing where people stand, and why.”
That’s what I’m talking about!
This discussions always has this effect.
I’m tired of this and I refuse to have a discussion that…
Well…
I’m much more concerned about the post you’ve entered today.
It’s a waste of time to write here.
You’re right!
I’ll shut up.
My intention was not to attack you.
As far as bipolarity – maniac-depression – is concerned my ex-husband is not that happy.
When I visit mental- hospitals in Brazil and talk with schizophrenics I assure you that they don’t feel fine. Specially because they know quite well that they all delusional.
The last time I met a woman who was crying because she has lost all her savings when she was in maniac phase and bought things she doesn’t need. She felt terrible because she has no support from her family.
I’m sorry again.
I believe that it’s right that to be “Mad in America” is very different from being “Mad in Brazil”.
Once again I’m very sorry and you will not have to hear from me again.
You are right to notice I don’t like people shitting on my blog, Ana, but I don’t believe in removing comments. *Fixing* this would only enable your limitations with impulse control.
We’ve all acted like assholes in cyberspace at one time or another. If the fact that the evidence lives forever on the net doesn’t make us more circumspect I don’t know what will.
None of it is worth it friends become enemies, we are fighighting a civil war! You can’t do it alone, I can’t do it alone, so then maybe we should not do it? Perhaps there are no allies in antipsychiatry and what is antipsychiatry? I tried hard and it disintegrated. No there is no pulling it back together we all understand that. So go for yourself, go with yourself, and don’t forget to take yourself with you! That is the message that I can give you! So now what? Does the fight stop until it is you that they are coming for? I don’t know and a very big part of me says that I don’t even care! What else can they do to some of us? I guess a lot of things if they so became that determined? That’s all I suppose?
Writhe Safely 
Flawedplan: Never deconstruct anything without having something else to replace it with.
I thought you’d tear the bitch a new asshole when I read that line.
I mean, what would be the point of deconstructing anything in order to replace it? Is our future dream a shopping scheme? Isn’t it more realistic to simply get pissed, destroy? Even if there were a point to reconstructing a deconstructed construction, would it even be possible? No, it’s either a poorly thought out statement or an evil koan, designed captain kirk-like to make the the computer’s thought processor burst into flames. I don’t know how that actually fits into the psychiatry vs anti-psychiatry argument, but if you watch old episodes of Star Trek with the volume turned down and listen to God Save the Queen long enough, you’ll see what I’m trying to say. Well, not necessarily, but from an Aristotelian perspective, the conclusion that reconstruction, much less a better reconstruction, must follow from deconstruction, is not logical. And Derrida would probably laugh his ass off, though probably not in a way anyone would actually call intelligible.
Yeah, not to mention that the reconstruction of “mental illness” is taking place before our eyes whether we like it or not. I want to tear some new ass-holes, Chuck, Philip, who I adore, likes to keep things *civil* over there so of course the nastiness comes out all sideways and passive-aggressive. We’re all very fucking careful not to offend, and that makes me crazy, I have to say what I think and feel, you know, EXPRESS, the way a wound lets the poison out or the thoughts and feelings will never go. Honesty liberates, I’m not mad at anyone now, and am actually talking to people I’ve been disgusted with for the first time in months. Yelling heals my life.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErFecp3Jn7U
Point taken Alison, but that way lies pity and paternalism. Higher standards doesn’t mean the death of empathy.
And I’m not running away from you. We have to deal with conflict.
I am somewhat antipsychiatry. I didn’t join the discussion on “Never deconstruct anything””. I don’t kid myself about my intellectual strength and importance, I’m fairly dumb, un-read and un-educated. So couldn’t write anything.
I am guessing you feel/felt unsupported? ( is it past or current tense of “feel”?)
I don’t think the mentally ill person exists until they are made by psychiatry, psych drugs/meds, the psych ward and the people around the former person ( peoples attitude to the diseased mentally ill), now pronounce witch/mentally ill.
The two things, 1)society announces mental illness is real, jails and medicates/drugs these people. These supposed ill want the same rights as any other disabled or ill group.
2) the mentally ill are in a large percentage not sick, but have been MADE perpetually sick by the meds/drugs (billion dollar profit) and the belief system in/of mental illness (needing meds/drugging). This is provent by comparing 1903 rates of serious mental illness with 2008’s rates percentages. Something is wrong in the “science” of psychiatry.
Once you have been declared seriously mentally ill and it sticks , you lose everything important. With everything lost what motivates one to get up in the morning and take on the day? The lack of insight of psychiatry on the effects of their diagnosis is crazy.
You know you’re right when they scream really, really loud.
You keep right on pointing out the error of their ways.
Sorry it took me so long to come back, I’ve been trying to school myself in what the hell happened. It’s not about being right but in hitting the same brick wall over and over. It seems the schism in radical mental health is on the voluntary/involuntary axis (as if that was black and white) or people who want to abolish v. those who want to reform, which puts people in the “same” movement at cross purposes, so we avoid necessary discussion because it inevitably leads to denunciation and flame wars. I’m just real tired of not knowing where people stand, and why.
i hate the brick wall and i am going to possibly piss you the hell off by saying i wish we lived closer; because we would be a couple of kick ass friends.
Yeah, this Internet deal creates a different kind of friendship. I believe we’re getting there, Stephany.
I think the schism is that antipsych folks don’t believe that there are discreet mental illnesses. It’s not that we don’t realize severe emotional distress exists though I speak for myself only. All of this talk about those dangerous schizophrenics troubles me when it’s pretty obvious the way one is treated once one gets that arbitrary label causes the behavior we think of as crazy. If someone hears voices, and you lock them up and torture them, is it any wonder the voices turn violent, frightening, abusive?
Meanwhile, if I’m reading you correctly, you believe that psych labels signify real conditions but you have a lot of problems with the current models for diagnosing, classifying and treating these conditions. So you and I often agree about the problems in the “mental health” system, and from what I’ve read I agree with you regarding problems with the system, but the fact that at the root of it all, I don’t think anybody is Bipolar or borderline…. and you disagree. Am I close?
I am not antipsychiatry and I don’t believe mental illnesses are biologically based. The day this can be proved I will go with the science, will you? NAMI says yes it is, and MINDFREEDOM says no it can’t be, and I say this is a ridiculous battle to base a movement on.
Do you not know what I believe? How is that possible? My worldview is on my ABOUT page, my blogroll, under INSIGHT, what do you see there? Click some links! Do you get the snark? What does Torrey call insight? Ah, see?
But, people who take the intellectually honest position and admit we don’t know whether mental illness is linked to heredity so let’s deal with what we do know, are constantly berated that they just don’t get it, despite our volume of work to the contrary. You know how often I get screamed at by antipsychiatry fucktards that there is no scientific proof of biologically based mental illness? No blood tests, no brain scans, no lab work can prove the broken brain exists? Why do you think they tell me this?
The reason I don’t like antipsychiatry asshats as people has to do with this effort to seize the discourse and make it about their pet obsession, and the inflexible assumption that people who refuse to play have something to learn about pseudoscience. And no matter how many times and in how many ways you put on record for the world to see that you get it, that you got it decades before they found WordPress, and that you begin from a “post-getting it” framework, that your own starting place is eons ahead of where they keep wanting to place you makes them ridiculous.
So, once more with feeling:
I don’t believe there are discrete mental illnesses, either, and I am not antipsychiatry. The day this can be proved I will align my belief with the evidence. Will you?
I also consider it a bad faith argument to define these disorders solely in politically correct terms of “severe emotional distress” while pointedly ignoring the mental derangement, profound irrationalism and unpredictablility that honest people acknowledge as madness.
I think using the term “politically correct” is bad faith behavior. I don’t get why you feel the term “disorder” is somehow necessary to describe severe emotional success. Of course I acknowledge that what you describe as madness exists I just don’t think it’s a medical disease. Madness can be a terrible thing as can dementia, still calling these conditions illnesses or diseases implies they are causing by a failing in the human experiencing them, sort of like calling poverty a disease which also bothers me, but that doesn’t mean I don’t think poverty is a serious problem or that I deny it’s existence, I just don’t think poverty is a disease or an illness.
Huh, but do I think dementia is a disease, a too brief typing of the above comment lead me to imply I don’t, but I think I do consider dementia, i.e. senility to be sort of a disease, a wearing out of the brain.
Yes, Alzheimer’s is a proven organic disease, based on the brain tangles seen during autopsy.
This is the thing. I don’t think you’re clear on the difference between an implication and an inference. Inferring is active on your part, it is *your stuff*, and left unattended can lead to these strawman arguments, where you debate a non-existent adversary. When in doubt you can check it out. Ask, are you saying mental illness or poverty are disease processes? The reason that I am taking you seriously at all at this point is that I know it’s not just you who avoids assimilating the words of people who won’t denounce the term “mental illness” which is indeed the litmus test . I’m just not into that argument.
Pick up your DSM, see the term “illness” anywhere? I looked, mental illness is not in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.
This is not to deny that the medicalization of social ills has become prominent the last 2 decades, it’s about separating fact from opinion. To this day, every diagnosis is officially classified as “disorder”. That is a fact. You could even say the DSM is on your side here, since it’s doubtful the new DSM will reclassify the disorders as diseases, because there is no reputable scientific evidence that psychological disorders are diseases.
And it’s plain ludicrous that both NAMI and Mindfreedom want to convince me that they have solved the insoluble nature/nurture debate that’s been going on forever under the purview of actual thinkers who approach the question with the gravity, scholarly heft and humility I respect. To NAMI it’s nature and Mindfreedom says nurture, the certainty offends me and I mock them both with equal glee.
So what exactly are you trying to say?
HI ya (((Robin((( Goody our back–NZ Goverment jsut took most legal aid off psy abuse case ppls-for somereason iam one o0f the few too keep theres–all others wll have 2 reaply—crock of shit-
Iam on pals puter and man its shite–Ive phoned you a few times but never get ya-Iam thinking its the whole time zone issue–iam so pissed at Kiwi Goverment I wanta rip them a few new arse holes–will keep on ringing–will get ya–mucho love Louise-xoxoxoxo
Call me now!
Sally, Mindfreedom and hardcore antipsychiatry types serve an important purpose, but I am not into it, and will not follow the playbook. I want more heart, more support and less ideological purity in radical mental health.
You said you’re tired of not knowing where people stand so I’ll try to explain where I stand on this whole thing. I don’t know what all the technical terms are or mean; all I really have to express my opinions are my own basic thoughts. My opinions are pretty radical, I think, but I guess they’d still fall into the “reform” category.
I’m against involuntary treatment. I do believe that some mental illness is caused by chemical imbalance, but I don’t think that current psychology takes circumstance into consideration as much as it should. I think that meds are way overprescribed and acceptance is way underrated. But some people need medication to feel okay, and I don’t see any reason why those people shouldn’t also be part of this movement.
I think that even something as abnormal as hearing voices isn’t neccesarilly a bad thing. Of course people have the right to get rid of mental states that disturb them, but I don’t think difference should be pathologized as much as it is. Some differences are positive, and even the negative ones can be useful. Destructive thoughts and behaviors, if we try to understand instead of eradicate them, can be very useful at revealing negative aspects of society that drive people to destruction.
So what does that make me?
Somebody.
Is there any schizophrenic here to claim that he feels fine?
Is there any person here to claim that it was a great and good trip being in maniac state?
This discussion is ridiculous!
I’m sorry!
flawedplan,
Please,
You have a good work here!
Don’t stress yourself with this.
There are people saying nonsense just in bad faith.
It’s a way to undermine the strengths of people who are trying hard, like you, to come up with good solutions.
Don’t feed them.
We have this kind of people in Brazil.
They are everywhere. They don’t believe in anything. They just want discussions like this to make you sound silly and loose credibility of your valuable work.
Stop this discussion, please!
It leads nowhere.
“…so we avoid necessary discussion because it inevitably leads to denunciation and flame wars. I’m just real tired of not knowing where people stand, and why.”
That’s what I’m talking about!
This discussions always has this effect.
I’m tired of this and I refuse to have a discussion that…
Well…
I’m much more concerned about the post you’ve entered today.
It’s a waste of time to write here.
I should stop running my blog?
Present!
Should you stop running your mouth?
I’m very sorry flawedplan.
You’re right!
I’ll shut up.
My intention was not to attack you.
As far as bipolarity – maniac-depression – is concerned my ex-husband is not that happy.
When I visit mental- hospitals in Brazil and talk with schizophrenics I assure you that they don’t feel fine. Specially because they know quite well that they all delusional.
The last time I met a woman who was crying because she has lost all her savings when she was in maniac phase and bought things she doesn’t need. She felt terrible because she has no support from her family.
I’m sorry again.
I believe that it’s right that to be “Mad in America” is very different from being “Mad in Brazil”.
Once again I’m very sorry and you will not have to hear from me again.
Could you please delete my comments?
All of them.
Unfortunately we don’t have this right.
I leave this choice open.
You are right to notice I don’t like people shitting on my blog, Ana, but I don’t believe in removing comments. *Fixing* this would only enable your limitations with impulse control.
We’ve all acted like assholes in cyberspace at one time or another. If the fact that the evidence lives forever on the net doesn’t make us more circumspect I don’t know what will.
None of it is worth it friends become enemies, we are fighighting a civil war! You can’t do it alone, I can’t do it alone, so then maybe we should not do it? Perhaps there are no allies in antipsychiatry and what is antipsychiatry? I tried hard and it disintegrated. No there is no pulling it back together we all understand that. So go for yourself, go with yourself, and don’t forget to take yourself with you! That is the message that I can give you! So now what? Does the fight stop until it is you that they are coming for? I don’t know and a very big part of me says that I don’t even care! What else can they do to some of us? I guess a lot of things if they so became that determined? That’s all I suppose?