The Simone D story has gained some traction in the feminist blogosphere. I would like to breathe a sigh of hope, but I can’t, something else is going on that always goes on and makes us lose whatever allies we pick up. By allies I don’t mean the unshakable Scientologists, and the somethiing else going on is not the knee-jerk discrediting of allies as such. Not yet.
If progressives are to take up psychiatric rights it’s the stakeholder’s job to meet them halfway. We have to be directive, and “on message.” Maybe I’m kidding myself and there is no real c/s/x community, but for the sake of argument, let’s say we have something going on. How do we get out of the ghetto? What can we do? What are we doing?
It’s tricky to urge social activists to take up yet another cause, and when people with no stake in a battle do their homework, give it time and attention, promulgate the scholarship and rally around in agreement, it is to celebrate. Strength in numbers, the consolidation of power, hope and possibility springs up.
Then I read Crazy Tracy’s outburst regarding Philip’s post on ECT, and have been immoblilized ever since. This post is a first attempt to shake myself out of it.
I’m basically a social worker, whose feminism is rooted in the Ethics of Care tradition, which is where I learned about standpoint theory, what I read up on today to try to figure this shit out. Just to be clear for the nitpicking trolls, I got this from studies in social work, not Marxist or Women’s Studies, so it’s highly abbreviated, but what I got to tackle this mess.
Standpoint theorists maintain that people in the same social group will share the same perspective.
Generally true, except when it isn’t. There’s nothing wrong with generalizing experience, the question is what to do with the fly in the ointment. There’s one in every crowd.
According to standpoint, your opinion on ECT would be mediated by your relationship to it, and carry corresponding weight. A psychiatrist has a standpoint, as does a parent, husband, scholar, feminist, law-maker, etc. The privileged standpoint belongs to those best equipped to understand what ECT is actually about. Who is that, seriously? Is the patient receiving electroshock the ultimate authority? My heart and mind don’t agree on this. Because not all patients will agree with this:
[Many women] have testified that the real purpose of the electroshock was social control. Cognitive impairment or memory loss is frequently identified as the means. The rationale is: What cannot be remembered cannot be acted on.
ECT is effective in the way abuse is always effective — by inspiring fear of further violation. Additionally, a vicious cycle sets in, with ECT used to stop women from complaining about the effects of ECT. Significantly, many women have testified that when they spoke of the treatments making them worse, they were chastised and warned that continued complaints would be interpreted as illness and result in further “treatment.” Not surprisingly, women in turn reported protecting themselves by obeying. What is also telling, women psychiatric survivors who have not been shocked describe the very witnessing of shock in the institution as both traumatizing and an ever-present threat.
Women are subjected to electroshock two to three times as often as men. Approximately 95 per cent of all shock doctors are male.
ECT constitutes state-sponsored violence against women.
Any woman undergoing shock owes it to herself to read that paper, from the standpoint of a woman. Not to side with the abolitionists, but to understand what we’re on about.
I’m reading the Feministing thread. Lots of talk over there about voluntary choice. Pro-shock I tell you, “as a woman, and a med student.” No, you can’t combine them, choose one standpoint or let me guess. And throwing words around — consent, informed, choice, self-determination. As if to be a mental patient was about unmitigated agency now, calling your own shots. It’s not.
Shock damages brains, there’s no dispute about it. When someone chooses that which damages them, how do you proceed? “Respect their autonomy.” You know what that leads to. It’s an alibi, “honoring boundaries”, highminded talk for what boils down to self-serving disengagement.
It’s easy to stay respectful, interested, invested and connected when we agree. But this isn’t how the world works. Sometimes we have to watch people self-destruct, disagreeing all the way. We push through conflicts for the sake of relationship, because we’re here to help each other out, and we can’t do that when we drive people away.
I wish all women subjected to electroshock spoke in one voice, but I now know of at least 2 in the liberal blogosphere who defend it as a best practice for them, personally. There goes the vision thing. One of them is angry, and I don’t blame her for feeling threatened, if I was using ECT I’d go hellcat on your ass, there’s enough loss in my life as it is.
I don’t know if there’s a meaningful way to support someone’s choice of a practice I want abolished. I’m conflicted with all of it, all psychiatric treatments are questionable. But I have my little stash of killer Seroquel for when my mind begins to break. It’s a world of ambiguity. The one certainty is polarization, and patients splintering into factions is a step backwards. No wonder we can’t gain a foothold in the national discourse. Just keeping up with our stances is exhausting.
We’re a minority population, many have criminal justice histories, psychiatric abuse is below the radar, and engaging the material makes people uncomfortable. These are givens, what we have to work with. Our issues are esoteric and un-inviting; ECT, polypharmacy, involuntary committment, dominant therapies, jail diversion? Why should people care about this again? And when something monstrous happens inside established mental health and allies start to get involved, we run them off with our internal bickering.
I’ve read Crazy Tracy’s blog, it is not easily dismissible from a feminist, advocate or patient standpoint. And I know what it’s like to live without hope, then discover an intervention that rescues you from what would otherwise be a life of madness. Prognosis still guarded but you’re not a lost cause, the experience of yourself before and after treatment is night and day. We become champions of what works for us, and speaking out itself commands my respect. Survival breeds zealotry, best respect that too, breathing is the first rule of recovery.
I’m trying. We don’t always speak with one voice. But if we don’t speak to each other we’re doomed. Maintaining connection without silencing our differences is both psychologically sound and politically expedient. Difference is fearsome, but we have more similarites than differences. What we don’t have is the luxury to fragment. There are not enough of us to form tribes within our own community.



















Re “voluntary” shock, the thing is, if ECT were a drug it would have been taken off the market long ago. Though actually I should say, “if it were a non-psychiatric drug,” because obviously the rules are different.
Drugs (non-psychiatric) that have demonstrable benefits for a large number of people, even a majority, are nevertheless withdrawn if they are shown to have dangerous side effects even for a minority.
ECT doesn’t even rise to that level. Any benefit is highly controversial, and even shock doctors acknowledge that shock “isn’t for everyone.” Yet the damage it causes is indisputable: brain damage, permanent brain damage. So we have a treatment that at best helps a few people (giving it the most generous benefit of the doubt possible), but definitely causes brain damage to everyone.
And why is this legal again?
Patients are not allowed to choose insulin shock or drug shock or lobotomy, even if they personally believe that it will do them a world of good.
Wow, I was just reading that, in some states patients aren’t allowed to initiate electroshock. Why not, if it’s such a gentle, compassionate treatment of last resort? The same reason it’s a last resort? I read at ect.org that the shocks are stronger today than in decades past, used on both intractable and moderate depression and maintenance treatments are standard practice. Everyone loses their memory, which is described as a trade-off. For what?! Memories are the basis of selfhood, years, people, looking at pictures and without comprehending, reading about these losses is heartbreaking.
Re voilet socks not allowed
I read they still do perform lobotomies on severe OCD psychiatric patients. So that isn’t true.
Re ECT
instead of brain damage say they were cutting off a finger or say a toe (like they did for Drapetomania)
http://upalumni.org/medschool/appendices/appendix-43.html
What would people say then when it is no longer invisible damage?
I don’t have any answers or some profound thing to say. I personally reside in a constant state of conflict and terror, for myself and my daughter. It’s a place that sucks to exist, walking the rope, hoping it doesn’t lose slack before I find the answers. What I love about your writing here, and what brought me to your blog today–was your comment on FS. Shit you scare the crap outta me. I hope is yours–that somehow we can all become a fucking huge voice in this small world of ours, and I fear what someone must fear, is that I feel it impossible. Hell just being a Guardian in mental health court and seeing “sides” and attorrneys and gurneys and my littlest kid there who needs me to speak for her is enough to cause my own mental health to fall off of that tight rope, and hope there is a net if I made a mistake, or caused more grief, the net I need isn’t there, it never will be, I walk all sides and am a neutral force asking them all to come together, drop their sides and same page it for one kid. Forced shots are the same as forced ECT. It happens. It shouldn’t. Sorry for the rant.
I hope when you are offline you are public speaking somewhere, like for instance a NAMI group.
Slamming the use of ECT; take it from someone who endured 77 useless procedures and ended up with long-term memory loss and no improvement to her depression.
That was me way back when. Take a peek at my post “ECT – Will #54 Do The Trick?”
Living In Stigma
http://cherished79.wordpress.com
Brain surgery is still going on, even involuntary brain surgery.
I think folks generally know that desperate people will try anything, c.f. cancer patients who go to Mexico, even Corretta Scott King. I don’t think that is a big problem. I think the folks who will defend ECT out of ignorance are a big problem and the idea that it is ever an informed choice is a laugh. Yes, you’re catatonic, read this closely spaced two page consent form listing the risks in 5 minutes and sign it, that’s informed consent. Or, do the ECT or we will keep you in this snakepit of a hospital even longer-that’s informed consent. Or best of all, do the ECT or you will die of suicide, really good informed consent.
I’m sorry you got slammed on that blog I had not read before until I noticed folks hitting from it to my blog. Didn’t seem fair or nice to me and what’s with a man (?) calling a woman anti-feminist?
I don’t get it. If I could find a feminist in Virginia outside of Planned Parenthood I would be happy by the way.
Right, I spent the last 24 hours working through the “voluntary” bullshit, then went for a long walk tonight trying to think of how best to support someone like Crazy Tracy, who felt so attacked and threatened by the anti-ECT post at Philip’s. I am obsessed with relationship, and believe it in the Martin Buber way, the old man on my blogroll. Buber says you don’t even exist except in relationship to others, his writings make a compelling read.
Anyway, that guy who scolded me, Ampersand is a big wheel in the feminist blogosphere, he’s kind of nice, but in a correct, sickening way that I enjoy seeing fuct with. I considered it something of a badge to get scolded by a man concerning my anti-feminism. He likes your blog Hymes, and coming from him that is something.
Thanks for all your blessed comments folks, I’ve been out of sorts and needy the last couple days. I believe my loving gramma had ECT, stuff comes up.
Robin, I want to suggest that a way through the impasse is to focus on making laws and rules that ECT can only be given if a patient requests it, in full and flowery writing, and that it will be stopped the instant the patient so much as shakes her head “no.”
I’m talking about going beyond the “last resort” and “informed consent” protocols the pro-shock people like to cite, because we know that’s a sham, and we know that people are having shock FORCED on them all the time. (More than I’d realized before this week. That shit has really come back, hasn’t it?) I understand and agree with the desire to abolish shock because obviously doctors abuse it, but given the opposition of the true believers, I wonder if a do-able midpoint goal here might be to focus on making the abuse impossible. That way the pro-shock people like Tracy can continue to request that their brains be fried, while people like Simone D. and those others in New York will be spared. And also people who are really not capable of giving consent, of writing out a full personal statement of why they want shock, would also not be coerced into something.
In other words, make shock rare and difficult to obtain and impossible for doctors to force on people.
At the same time, advocate for openness in reporting and financial dealings, and for studies of the actual effects. I mean, if the shock people are so fricking convinced that their treatment is wonderful and that their motivations aren’t the slightest bit compromised, then they should welcome the openness, right? What’s the problem? (Snark.)
This website is pure evil. As someone with a boarderline ex spouse trying to hold his child hostage for more support money than I could ever afford. Yeah, boarderlines real, and dont I know it. God have mercy on your soul flawed plan. Some do Gods work, and some (you) work for the devil. Your not heading for anything good. Karma keeps a perfect tally of who owe’s what, and your bill is substantial and will be adressed until paid in full. I wish you luck.
You clearly haven’t been to this site Rick if you think this one is pure evil, try it out: http://www.whitehouse.gov
Rick,
pal, what this blog has to do with your life you clearly don’t know, so I’ll tell ya’
- nothin’.
But, because you showed up, it could have this – a little help now and then with words. Try you’re instead of your when appropriate.
Sorry, hope that wasn’t the devil’s work I just did, I’d hate to think of my second grade teacher as evil, she was so nice and kind, ‘least that’s how I remember her….
I would imagine hateful speech brings one bad karma too, Rick.
Just your standard men’s rights activist with the standard social visit from the pit of hell. No child custody for him, there’s a shock.
Maybe Rick ought to start a blog of his own to piss and moan about the indignities he seems to suffered over having a wife w mental health issues. on his “dues he has been given undeservedly”, there are 2 sides to every story, i wonder what the bpd wife would say about him. maybe that he is an ignorant asshole. I’m sorry but only the good die young, strike me down for saying someone is an ass that i never met. Rick, you are an ass.
I think I’m missing some information. Rick wrote “Some do Gods work, and some (you) work for the devil”.
I need a job, is the devil still hiring? What’s the pay? Does he/she include dental? What about retirement?
Ever hear of the saying when you point your finger at someone else, you have three others pointing (in your hand) back at you?
The evil actions you attribute to others can be what you fear most in yourself. Thats why you can feel so strongly about it, that person represents a part of yourself you hate.
Ahh this is too deep for here.
Guys, what we’re seeing here is a widespread sexist phenomenon You want to see how the DSM is being used to supplant oppression in the larger society, the mens rights activists are instructive. BPD is diagnosis of choice, used by MRAs against ex-wives in custody battles. They demand court-orderd psychological evaluations to prove the woman as unfit mother. Their efforts to steer and exploit psychologists for extra-psychological purposes has met with criticism by professionals, but what we need are clear laws to prevent women being put in this position in the first place.
MRA’s are the ones advocating for the inclusion in the DSM of the ludicrous Parental Alienation Syndrome, which the APA has roundly rejected.
The MRAs I’ve seen speak before Senate committees were rich, smooth and well-dressed. As “Rick” so clearly indicates, it’s very much about the money. They will stop at nothing to get out of paying child support.
I think the broader issue here is choice, not ECT.
If there was a genuine choice in whether or not you got ECT then we wouldnt be having this discussion.
So instead of demonising the option, be critical of the society which removes the right to choose.
As we have heard/seen/read ECT has different levels of efficacy for different people.
“Genuine choice,” I’d like to see what that looks like. Meanwhile there are stories to tell if anybody’s listening.
“Genuine choice.”
What does that look like? A desperate person being told that ECT is all that’s left, when likely it’s not even true. People are convinced that the benefits outweigh the risks and that is not even a debatable point in my book. If you’re one of the people who loses 5 years of your life or you can no longer find your way to the corner store most likely you won’t be saying the benefits outweighed the risk.
If ECT were a drug for any other condition if would be banned. The FDA would not allow it. The risks would be considered too high. Because it is psychiatric “subjects” who are put at risk, no one gives a shit.
“Genuine choice” is probably not a possibility in the psychiatric milieu of today. With genuine choice the person would be told–”ECT is an extremely dangerous option–you interested?”
Well I suppose some honest psychiatrist out there might say that.
That was absolutely beautiful. I didn’t feel attacked at all. And you made a very compelling argument. Just beautiful.
the honest psychiatrist (a better term would probably be ethical) would inform patients of the risks and benefits of treatment.
From my understanding thats been a foundation of medical treatment for a while now. Perhaps I have just been fortunate with the psychiatrists I have dealt with.
What makes me fume is the lies about the long-term memory loss with ECT. I was told over and over that it is only short-term memory that is lost, and only a very small percentage of people lose long-term. That isn’t true. I have spoken to many, me being one, who have lost long-term.
I am regaining some, ever so slowly, and thanks to my journals that I faithfully kept over the years. If not for hubby and these I would be lost. Grief is there though, and I am bitter, especially at a proceduce deemed necessary for regaining my life back but instead not saving my sanity at all. What a waste, and I still maintain that how would one of these pdocs like to endure 77?
Well, I’m sorry I missed out on the chance to make a comment on Dick’s comment yesterday, but I am glad his wife and child were able to escape his oppression. I hope they get a chance to heal.
Gianna, your comment gave me goosebumps. My psychiatrist said those exact words to me. “We’ve tried all the medications, ECT is all we have left.” I fired my psychiatrist and have been off ALL meds (successfully) for years. Thank god I wasn’t forced to have this done. He was wrong, it wasn’t all that was left.
UTGrad,
Right on! I’m working on coming off meds myself right now. I was on multiple meds and am doing a pretty darn good job of tapering off.
I was given the ECT “option” too. I’m thankful I turned it down as well. At the time I was not as well educated as I am now.
Check out my blog–it’s documentation of my journey off meds.
You and hundreds of others give me faith that I too will live without meds.
thanks
Gianna,
Actually I have been lurking on your website, too. I think I probably found your website and Writhe Safely through Furious Seasons. And I’m glad I have. It’s been really helpful for me to read other stories. I don’t always comment, but be assured that I feel blessed to be able to read these incredible stories of courage. I’m constantly reminded of and amazed by the strength of the human spirit. So, thank you for sharing your story with others. And thanks to Writhe Safely for some amazing writing, as well. Inspiring!